Oral History

Mr John Brooks life and times of a Stocking Weaver around Hinckley

Please Note The figures at the beginning of the line, correspond with the numbers at the foot of each report; and the figures at the end of the line, refers to the MS. Paging of the Volumes arranged for The House of Commons.

Interviewer: His Grace the Duke of Buccleuch, K. G., in the Chair

Interviewed: Mr John Brooks

Date of Interview: 12th June 1843

455. You were originally a weaver? --- I was; a stocking weaver.

456. Where did you reside? --- At Hinckley in Leicestershire, I lived with my father. He had six children, and my grandfather lived with him; nine persons altogether.

457. What was the size of the house? --- There were three rooms in it; the house room and two chambers above.

458. About what size was the room? --- The room below was a largish one; it was a very cold place; it was one of the old fashioned thatched houses.

459. Did any of the family sleep in that room? --- No, not below; they all slept in the rooms above.

460. Was that like the ordinary houses in that part of the country? --- It was better than the majority of them.

461. Was it in a row of houses? --- Yes; but the houses were not uniform; they were not of one height or of one quality.

462. Was the street paved? --- Yes, and about 30 feet wide.

463 Was there any back yard to the house? --- Yes; a very convenient back yard about six or seven yards wide.

464. What was there beyond that back yard --- There were yards belonging to other houses; there were other yards, and courts, and streets at the back of it.

465. So that time back yard of the house in which you lived adjoined the back yard of a house in another street? --- Yes.

466. Was there any accommodation in the yard for a privy or necessary? --- There was a necessary, hut for 20 years of my life we had nothing more than a sort of tub, which was obliged to be emptied in the mornings.

467. Was there any drainage from that? --- The drainage was very bad indeed; there was a dunghill in the middle of the yard.

468. There was no sewer to the house? --- No, not properly speaking.

469. Was the drain covered or open? --- An open drain.

470. Had you any supply of water in the house? --- No; all the water there is fetched from the pumps in the street, generally, except in the large houses.

471. What rent was paid for that house? --- 5s to 10s.

472. Was that the ordinary rent of houses in Hinckley? --- The ordinary rent of the houses was very fair; about 2s - 2d a-week; some as high as half-a-crown.

473. Was that for the house alone, or did it include the rent for the stocking-looms? --- The stocking-loom rent is altogether separate.

474. Had you the rates to pay besides the rent? --- Yes; they were compounded for under a local Act.

475. To what did they amount? --- Some times to 10s. or up to 13s in the year.

476. Did you belong to a sick club? --- I did.

477. As a family or yourself? --- My grandfather was a member of a club, and when I reached 20 years of age, by his request I joined it.

478. What subscription did you pay? --- Fifteen pence per month; out of that we had a surgeon when sick.

479. Was it a healthy part of the town in which you lived? --- I should say naturally very healthy, if the drainage was properly attended to.

480. In consequence of the defective drainage it was not healthy? --- It was not to those who worked in the loom; except when emptying the convenience or anything of that kind, we experienced very little annoyance in the house; it was principally from labouring at the loom, confined for 15 or 16 hours in a close room; it was in that way we experienced the bad effects; not so much from the locality.

481. As from neglect? --- No, I cannot say the place was neglected at all. We always chose those times when our neighbours and family were in bed; but my own health was injured by the confinement; we had a sedentary employment, in the room where part of the family slept.

482. You say there was no underground drainage? --- No, there was not.

483. Were there any cleanings of the street or the yard? --- Sometimes, in wet weather.

484. Was that at any particular time? --- No; the street was naturally clean, it was well paved.

485. On a good slope? --- Yes.

486. Was the cleansing of it enforced by the local authorities? --- No; I never saw it cleaned except when the operatives were out of employment.

487. Where were the slops of your house thrown? --- They were thrown into the kennel in front of the house.

488. Was there any water that passed down there? --- No.

489. Was that the case with the persons residing in the rest of the houses near you, that they threw the slops into the street? --- Many of them had sinks, and they are carried to the back part of the house.

490. Were the privies annexed to the houses adjoining that in which you resided cleaned from time to time? --- No; they were generally open.

491. Was the smell offensive in hot weather? --- Always.

492. There was no provision for the formation of proper privies or the cleaning them? --- No, not at all.

493. What access was there to those back yards; was there any other way but through the house? --- No.

494. So, that all the dirt and filth which accumulated in the back yard was obliged to be carried through the kitchen? --- It was generally carried in large buckets with a yoke.

495. From your knowledge of the working classes in that neighbourhood, do you believe that if they could obtain a good supply of water in their dwelling houses they would be willing to pay for it? --- If they could have it in their houses it would add to the habits of cleanliness but in Hinckley water is very plentiful, except in one or two parts; they generally have the water from the pumps in the street. In the upper part of the town they are much plagued for water, and in the morning when the pumps are unlocked, the people will stand for their turn; that is only occasionally when there is a scarcity.

496. In other parts of the town are there open and free pumps? --- Yes; but the inhabitants pay a small sum to keep them in repair.

497. Do the tenants or the landlord pay that? --- The tenants.

498. How much is paid? --- It is generally about 9d a-year; If there is a little more in one year it is carried on to the next.

499. They carry the water themselves? --- Yes.

500. Suppose a proper supply of water were laid on in those places where there is a deficiency at present a proper drainage effected, and proper accommodation in the nature of the water closets, do you suppose they would be inclined to pay as much as you paid to the sick club for that accommodation? --- Oh dear no, I do not think they could well afford it. I dare say about 2d. a-week they would be willing to pay, but if it comes to 4d or 5d it is too much for them to pay.

501. It would conduce very much to their cleanliness if they had an ample supply of water? --- Yes, it certainly would.

502. And it would add to their comfort by their having it at hand, instead of being obliged to leave their children unattended to, to go and fetch it? --- Yes. The only objection to it is the price. If it could be procured reasonably. I have no doubt the majority of them would hail it as a great blessing.

503. What are the average wages in Hinckley for a family? --- About 5s a-week; that includes all. There are some that get as much as 8s perhaps or even as high as 9s, and others who will not get more then 3s. 6d. or so.

504. At what age do the children commence working? --- As soon as they are able to handle a needle.

505. At what age is that? --- About three years.

506. Does the Factory Act extend to Hinckley? --- There is only one factory in Hinckley.

507. Does the Act Extend to that? I think not.

508. Are those children kept for a length of time within doors at this work? --- Yes, and when they are in full work the children are kept up till 11 or 12 or 1 on the Saturday morning.

509. Does that affect their health? --- Not so much at first as one would be ready to imagine; but does it after wards: it lays the foundation of a perpetual weakness.

510. How many hours a day do they work? --- From 13 to 16: not the children; but they generally work from seven in the morning till nine or ten, and about once or twice in a week till eleven or twelve or one o'clock. The children from three to five years old will begin perhaps at breakfast time; they go to school, and work at hours when other children of other classes are in school, and then play; but as they grow older the hours of labour are increased.

511. How many hours of labour for a child five years old? --- I should think nine or ten.

512. Have you not found that injurious to the health of little children? --- Certainly.

513. Does that refer to girls as well as boys? --- Yes.

514. Of what nature is the food usually consumed by the working classes in Hinckley? --- Those that can afford it generally have a small portion of meat every day they can, if it is only two pennyworth or a pennyworth of suet; when they cannot afford that, they will have a red herring to flavour the potatoes.

515. What is their usual food for breakfast? --- Very weak tea for grown-up persons, and bread.

516. What is the food for dinner? --- Potatoes, and perhaps two or three pennyworth of meat for the family. The general practice is to make broth, thickened with a small portion of flour or oatmeal, and cut up pieces of bread, and so on.

517. You stated a little while ago that you thought they would not be inclined to pay so much as the subscription to the sick club for the accommodation of water and drainage and an additional water closet; would they be willing to pay that instead of their subscription to the sick club, if they considered that it would be likely to prevent disease? --- lf they could have as great a security when they were sick, they would be willing do so, I have no doubt but to them it would appear, I should think, of far more consequence to pay it to the sick club.

518. Generally speaking, are the working classes healthy in the town of Hinckley? --- Yes; the town is very well situated on the side of a small hill, and the air is tolerably dry.

519. Those that are unhealthy are chiefly so from the nature of their occupation? --- Yes.

520. Those who have had opportunities of getting frequently into the open air are more healthy? --- Yes; they are a fine healthy race, physically speaking.

521. What is the population? --- A little more than 6,000.

522. Do you think that the working classes, the weavers and those working in large towns, generally speaking, whose houses have been neglected in cleanliness, and who have had no water, no proper provision for privies, and so on, if their houses were improved in that respect would be willing to pay a reasonable addition for those accommodations? --- I do.

523. Would not that desire increase in proportion as they improved in education? --- Decidedly so.

524. Do you not think that the working classes generally, if they were made aware that by paying 2d a week or so for those conveniences and advantages, it was likely their health would he so far improved as to render the support of a sick club of less consequence, would be disposed to pay the money in order to avail themselves of them? --- Certainly.

525. If it had tire effect of preventing sickness? --- Yes, certainly.

526. Are there any of those cottages that belong to the working persons who occupy them? --- Very few indeed, I know one or two.

527. Have those more conveniences than the common houses, which are let? --- No, nor so many, those persons who have cottages of their own generally make shift with anything, rather than lay out money. I have known one family, with whom I worked for two or three years, take down the chamber door to make a pigsty of it just at the back door.

528. There is no regulation to prevent anything injurious to health in those cottages? --- No

529. There is no person to see that there is no filth and dirt cast out? --- No Along with a friend of mine, who lived in one of those courts where we counted more than 20 privies and pigsties in a very small space, we called attention to it.

530. Were they in a filthy state? --- Very much so indeed; the inhabitants were much annoyed with them; they were principally person who collected bones; they had a public house next the street, but whose back premises were up this court, and there they built those pigsties, and had a large cistern, in which they collected the liquid manure, just in the front of several workshops. Then there was the privy, which was used by the common girls, who generally congregated at this public house. Whenever they were requested not to stir up this cistern, or to clear out tire pigsties in the open day, they always met it with abuse, and the thing was stirred up more in order to annoy. I wrote a letter calling the attention of the authorities to it, but no further notice was taken of it.

531. There was no remedy? --- No; it still continued in the same state, and does now.

532. Was that injurious to the health of the inhabitants? --- It would be; but it is situated just at the outskirts of the town, and the wind drives right down the court, or it would be injurious.

533. You stated that you were unwell at one time; what was the matter with you? --- The surgeon said it was consumption.

534. Did you feel yourself very unwell? --- Yes; I kept my bed.

535. How were you affected? --- In my lungs; a violent pain in my chest, and great debility; a rearing of phlegm, and hectic.

536. Are you to understood to say that you attributed your illness more to the state of the atmosphere within the house than to external annoyances? --- Yes, in that particular part where I lived. I lived in a very good neighbourhood; but there are several localities in the town which are the very reverse, and where the great masses of the operatives congregated. In my own case, I was situated very well; it was only the air in the room.

537. How did the air in the room affect you? --- By labouring in it from 14 to 16 hours, it was consequently vitiated; and having no means of ventilation except by opening the window, which would not be prudent, as our confinement makes us susceptible of cold, and if we expose ourselves we are always injured.

538. You suffered much from draughts of cold? --- Yes; we were obliged to keep the window closed.

539. There was no ingress for the air except by the doors and windows? --- No.

540. Had you a fire place in the room? --- Yes.

541. How were the rest of the family affected? --- My mother died, I believe, partly through that.

542. From the state of the atmosphere in the apartments? --- Yes.

543. That was your opinion? --- It was the opinion of the surgeon.

544. From consumption? --- Yes.

545. Can you recollect any circumstances particularly connected with the origin of your own illness? --- It first began by the stomach being disordered, and attacks every spring, a sort of fever, and a slight cough; from year to year it kept increasing.

546. Your appetite gave way first? --- Yes.

547. And the other effects followed? --- Yes.

548. Were any others of the family affected? --- No, not particularly.

549. Were they engaged in the same employment? --- Not so much as I was; being the oldest of the family, I laboured more hours than any of the rest.

550. You stated that the ground in the immediate vicinity of the house was not well drained was the water at all impregnated with any filth? --- Yes, at the back of the house; the front was very well.

551. What was the quality of the water you had? --- Very hard.

552. Was it at all affected with animal or vegetable matter? No, I think not.

553. Was it clear, and pleasant to the taste? It was tolerably pleasant, with the exception of the hardness.

554. It was not the custom of any of your family to sleep below? --- No.

555. Was it considered unhealthy to do so, or was it from convenience? --- From convenience; to avoid taking up and down the bed.

556. You said there was a common privy; did you observe any effect as to indecency of manners arising from that? --- Yes; in the place where I worked a considerable time, immoralities and indecencies were very prevalent.

557. Did you observe that those who used to be guilt of them, by constant use became more and more hardened? --- Yes. I did; and many of the girls about there, who to all appearance would have been very good girls, were drawn away and became bad.

558. Were the people in your station generally taught to read and write? --- The generality of the operatives' children were sent to the Sunday Schools; but among the lower class in the courts that was not the case.

559. Do you mean in courts where they enter on the side of the street? --- A small doorway under a sort of arch, and a row of houses on each side.

560. Are there many of those courts? --- A great many.

561. Was there any entrance except through that arched court? --- The back of the court was open to the air; the one end was not but going round we could get in at the wider end.

562. Was that width enough for a cart to go along? --- No; only a very small piece at the top.

563. They could not get a cart in to cleanse the court? --- No; the filth was generally wheeled away.

564. How is the filth now carried off? --- The liquid manure invariably runs down the court there is a kennel in the front of the houses.

565. Was the smell very noisome in hot weather? --- It was so noisome, that when the wind blew one way, the neighbours would go into the houses on the opposite side to get out of the way of it.

566. Was that the part of the town where you say the people were congregated very much together? --- Yes.

567. Was there more than one family living in a house? --- In a few instances, not in many.

568. How many persons were living, in any instance, in one room? --- In some instances eight or nine, or more than that.

569 Was that the only room they had to eat and sleep in? --- No; I only know two or three where that was the case.

570. Are the rents high for those houses generally? --- In some of them they are moderate they range from 1s. 6d to 2s 2d. per week.

571. Are the people unhealthy in those parts of the town? --- In those courts they are.

572. What is the nature of their complaints generally? --- Fevers, and other contagious disorders; but as the town is situated on the side of a hill, it is not so much as might be imagined.

573. The natural situation of the town is very good? --- Yes.

574. And the supply of water is good? --- Yes in one part of it.

575. Are you acquainted with any other of the Leicestershire towns where the weaving is carried on? --- Yes; in Leicester the condition of the workingmen is very bad.

576. Are there many courts such as you describe in Leicester? --- Yes.

577. Is the want of cleanliness in those courts such as you have described? --- Yes, in some I have been up.

578. Is not the great majority of the residences of the operatives in Leicester constructed in the way you have described in courts? --- Yes there are two classes of operatives in Leicester, the master stocking weaver and the journeymen. The master stocking-man has 10 or 20 looms under his care; he generally does not take himself but take in the work, look after the men and bring the work back the journeymen inhabit those places.

579. Are you acquainted with any other manufacturing town of the Midland districts? --- Yes Earl Shilton in Leicestershire and also the village of Stoke Golding.

580. What is the description of the residences of the operatives in these places? --- In some parts of Stoke Golding fever has prevailed every year; there is some want of drainage there; the town is low, and therefore they feel it more.

581. Do you attribute the fever, which prevails among those poor people to those causes? --- Yes.

582. From your observations, should you say there was more fever and illness during the time was a scarcity of employment and the people were out of work? --- There was during the last year. The fever was very prevalent, last summer, when the operatives were out of employment.

583. To what cause do you ascribe that? --- Partly to the want of cleanliness, and partly to bad living and insufficiency of’ clothing and shelter.

584. Are the working classes in those places much in the habit of frequenting the public houses? --- One class of them are.

585. What class are those? --- Those who live in those low places.

586. Are there any means of public amusement for them? --- Not at all.

587. Is fuel dear? --- No, it is tolerably reasonable.

588. Do the fireplaces effectually warm the rooms? --- Not so much as they might do.

589. Would not you rather have bad air, which is warmed, than good air that is cold? --- Yes, I generally prefer the warmth.

590. Do you consider that that is the general feeling? --- Yes.

591. Then if warm air was supplied abundantly there would be no objection to opening the windows? --- Not at all.

592. Practically, are you to be understood that the state of the atmosphere in the apartments was the greatest grievance you laboured under, and the cause of your illness? --- Yes; I do not know how it is, but when we become accustomed to this vitiated air we do not perceive it; it is only annoying in the morning when we leave another air and come into it, and observe the contrast with good air.

593. Have you been in the habit, when not at work, of opening the windows to let the fresh air in? --- Not so much as should be done; many of the fathers and mothers are prejudiced, and do not know the evil that springs from it; they never observe it. When I have mentioned the injurious effect that this vitiated air had upon my constitution, that I felt it exhausting my strength, it was looked on as a sort of nonsense and a new fangled notion that was not worth attending to.

594. Was it from the lowest quarter of the town that the largest number of persons frequented public houses? --- Yes.

595. Are the people accustomed to any athletic games? --- No; there is no ground at all if men or boys play, they must play on the highway.

596. Are there any gardens accessible? --- None.

597. No public walks? --- None, except the fields.

598. How do the people pass the Sunday? --- Those who inhabit the low districts either spend their time in the courts exchanging fowls or bartering away their dogs, and so on, or in ranging the fields in the afternoon after they have been lying a-bed, or loitered away their time in this way. in bartering away their fowls or their birds, or those things they deal in, they take a stroll of three or four miles, come home weary, and sleep away the afternoon.

599. Is there any footpath kept up along the road in the neighbourhood of this town? --- A little way; on two roads there is a footpath, which extends a considerable way, and those parts are most frequented.

600. Would it not be an advantage to a populous place like that to have a free footpath out by every turnpike road? --- Yes

601. Do they usually go to the public houses after their return from their rambles? --- I cannot say that they do; they are very poor and cannot afford it, except in a few instances, where a poor man gets the earnings of his children; he might then go and spend them, but he must rob his children if he does. The general practice is, on the Sunday evening, for those who are not able to make a decent appearance at a place of’ worship, to congregate together, pay their halfpenny or penny and send for a newspaper from a public house.

602. Do any of them ever work at their trade on a Sunday? --- I recollect one instance of an individual who was called upon to pay poor-rates amid he pleaded that he was not able to pay; he had a family. They still insisted upon it, and he worked on the Sunday; but he did not continue it beyond one or two Sundays.

603. Did the more respectable people reproach him? --- Yes.

604. It was generally thought an improper thing? --- Yes; among the operatives there is a great regard to the Sabbath; the generality of them are very moral as far as their opportunities extend.

605. Do you think that if a fair opportunity was given to those people to make their houses in a better condition, and they had opportunities for exercise from time to time, on Sundays or on other days, in the evening, it would improve their condition? --- Yes; I am persuaded of it; the operatives were very anxious to have the advantages of the Mechanics’ Institute, but the payment was too high for them.

606. Do you think that they would improve in decency and morality by such advantages being afforded them? --- Yes the gentlemen of the Mechanics’ committee lowered the rate of payment for the poor, and they flocked into it in great numbers as soon as it was lowered to their capacity.

607. You state the average rent of a house to be 5/. - 10s; do you think if a better description of houses were constructed, men would be disposed to give a higher rent? --- Yes; I have always observed that when a new house was erected on a better plan that house never stood empty; eight or nine persons have been ready to take it.

608. At an increased rent? --- No, I cannot say at an increased rent; but if there was an improvement in their form and convenience.

609. Were there any schools for the poorer classes of children? --- There was one, the National School, but not many of the operatives could afford to send their children they could not afford to give up their time.

610. Was there are any play ground to it? --- A small yard.

611. What is your opinion of the advantages of the allotment system, as it is called? --- The advantages are many and great. At the present time they have not at Hinckley enough land to supply the competitors.

612. What quantity do you think would be most beneficial? --- The quantity should be regulated according to the man’s skill in cultivating his garden and number of his family.

613. You think his having an allotment, which would occupy him in his spare time in the evening, would be beneficial to him? --- Yes; and instead of giving their attention to game cocks, for sale, and such things, they would devote it to the garden and the cultivation of plants and vegetables for their family.

614. It would create an improvement in their habits, and be beneficial to their families? --- Yes.

615. Would it teach the children early habits of industry? --- It would; they would have recreation, and it would be profitable to them.

616. What is the amount they pay for a quarter of an acre? --- 1s

617. Does that include all the rates? --- I believe it does.

618. It is better that the rent should include the rates? --- Yes, and their rents should he paid by instalments.

619. Does the land answer to them at that rate? --- Yes.

620. What is the usual quantity of land in each allotment? --- They have allotted only a quarter of an acre at Hinckley, simply because they have not sufficient hand, or the people would be glad to take a larger quantity for the proper rotation of crops, and to grow wheat.

621. Are there any allotments of less extent than a quarter of an acre? --- I believe not.

622. Do you think a family could cultivate more than a quarter of an acre with advantage? --- Yes, where there are three or four sons in the family, and they have grown up to 14 or 15 years of age, they could cultivate more; and it would be a great kindness to their parents to give them this land to cultivate, for it would keep them from vicious conduct, and prevent their spending their time badly.

623. It would also be an employment at those seasons of the year when there was a scarcity of work? --- Yes.

624. Do you know whether any plan for the rotation of crops has been laid down by means of rules and suggestions? --- I laid before the chairman of the Committee of the House of Commons on Allotments of Land, now siding, a copy of those rules. It is highly necessary there should be rules and regulations, and that the Committee should appoint a person to superintend and see that the rules are attended to.

625. Were there the means of setting this system of allotment in operation in Hinckley? --- Yes.

626. Has it become general? --- There are 37 ½ acres of land divided up.

627. And that greatly to the satisfaction of the occupants? --- Yes; the only thing is, that they have not laud enough; there are a hundred ready to take more now.

628. Is that land with or without buildings? --- Without buildings.

629. How is it divided? --- Only by stakes.

630. Is it found that they respect each other’s property? --- Yes; every man acts a policeman to his neighbour; and there is another advantage in leaving it open, that they are ready to help each other, and the land is not so much impoverished.

631. Is there any system for the proper supply of manure laid down? --- Each one is to manure his own.

632. Is there any rotation of crops laid down in the regulations? --- Yes; it is understood that the same piece of ground, which grows potatoes this year, shall not grow them the next, and so on.

633. Do the individuals generally dig and cultivate their ground themselves? --- Yes.

634. Do they ever employ persons at wages to do it for them? --- No, they could not afford it; they are fond of the occupation.

635. How do you find the health of the persons who work those allotments, as compared with that of other persons? --- I have not seen them the last few months, but the account I have received from the secretary is greatly cheering.

636. How long has it been in existence? --- It came into existence only in the autumn of last year. So far it has worked well, and the good crops now on the land have given hopes to other people who are now desirous to join.

637. Do they grow for sale, or only for their own supply? --- Some of them grow plants for sale. The secretary told me they had cultivated the best cauliflowers in the town, and that the old gardeners in the town were coming to look at them but general they are cultivated only for the family.

638 Adding considerably to the comfort of the family? --- Certainly, very greatly.

639. Do you find any difference in the amount of work is performed in-doors by those who have gardens, in which occasionally employ themselves; that it is materially diminished? --- Yes; and it is highly desirable that there should be; the supply is more proportionate to the demand; the people having a small portion of land to cultivate will throw the labour period over a greater space of time; it operates very beneficially in that way.

640. What is the rent of a stocking-loom? --- The letting rent for a hosier's frame is 1s. per week; if the frame is what is called an independent one, and belong; to a private individual, there is 9d for the rent of that frame, and 7d for its being employed, which makes the independent frame dearer than the hosier’s and it is no advantage for a working man to have a frame of his own, because then he must keep it in very good repair, and tray a certain amount, 7d. or 8d, for its being employed.

641. What is the cost of the frame? --- A new frame costs from 12/. to 14/. some frames are soil at 5/. or 6/., but the new ones answer best.

642. Have you observed whether the persons accustomed to work in the house generally, from working in their gardens only occasionally, are accustomed to take cold? --- At first, when they ever they are employed out of doors, in wet or cold weather, they take cold.

643. Do you find they are more healthy when they are accustomed to work entirely out in the open air? --- Yes I believe the last flat season, when they were employed in the stone yard, the men became more healthy.

644. Is there any topic on which you can give information to the Commissioners, bearing on the subject of their inquiries? --- Only as to the Government taking into account the Feoffee Lands, and the common lands, and making a law by which they can be let out to the labouring men under the allotments plan.

645. By common lands, do you mean those on which the people turn out cattle at different times in the year? --- Yes; not to be given to different individuals, but to be kept as national property, to be let out to the people.

646. Do you mean in the vicinity of large towns? --- Yes, and small ones too; not the whole of the land. An equivalent should, of course, be given to those who have rights; but a portion should be, in my opinion, secured to the poor for their use.

The Witness Mr John Brooks withdrew.